Thursday, July 13, 2006

Syria and Hizbullah on the Attack

The Hizbullah incursion into Israel to capture two Israeli soldiers to be used as a bargaining chip for the release of Lebanese prisoners being held in Israel was carried out smoothly. Ostensibly, it was an operation that had only limited goals. Hizbullah has been announcing for over a year that it would kidnap Israeli soldiers if Lebanese prisoners in Israel were not released. As Anthony Shadid writes from Lebanon:

The attack Wednesday was almost sure to bolster the martial reputation of Hezbollah, which probably enjoys more support in the rest of the Arab world than in Lebanon itself, where other sectarian factions have pushed for it to disarm. Nasrallah has vowed on numerous occasions to seize soldiers as a bargaining chip for the Lebanese prisoners; in one speech, he said it would happen this year.
But in the larger arena of the Middle East, Hizbullah's attack on Israel was clearly timed to increase pressure on Israel and the US when they are most vulnerable. Passions in the region have been inflamed against Israel and the US by Israel's aggressive incursion into Gaza and attempt to force the rapid collapse of the Palestinian Authority led by Hamas.

Normally, Hizbullah would have to be very cautious about embroiling Lebanon in another round of fighting with Israel for fear that Lebanon's other sects would condemn it. But with the Gaza situation having aroused general anger against Israel, Hizbullah felt free to jump into the fight on the side of the Palestinians, knowing that even its Christian enemies in Lebanon could not condemn it for sacrificing Lebanon's infrastructure and all important tourist season.

Syria is thrilled by the opportunity to undermine America and Israel's general policies in the region. For years, Asad has insisted that the US is following contradictory, hypocritical and unrealizable policies in the region and has opposed them. The United States has condemned Syria for terrorism and being a force of evil in the region because Syria not only refuses to help the US achieve its goals in the region, but has been actively working to frustrate them. Washington has asked Syria to help build a strong Hariri led government Lebanon, build a strong pro-American government in Iraq, and help Israel tame the Palestinians in the occupied territories while it establishes the wall through the West Bank as its border.

The US has sought to isolate Syria, cut off its regional trade, push it out of Lebanon, and starve it of international funds and assistance. Syria believes it must hurt the US where it can in order to force Washington to rethink its anti-Syrian and general regional policies. Syria insists that Washington must engage it if it wants even a modicum of Syrian cooperation. It will continue to encourage its allies to attack American interests in Lebanon and Israel until it gets that engagement. With the United States on the run in Iraq, frustrated by the Hariri government's weakness, extended in the UN by its losing showdown with Iran, and embarrassed by Israel's aggressive anti-Palestinian policies, Syria is feeling strong. It can now go on the offensive. Damascus feels confident that Washington cannot counter-attack at this time. It has few arrows left in its quiver.

So far it looks like Israel may be playing into Syria's hands by holding the Hariri government responsible for the Hizbullah attacks and not just Hizbullah and its backers. The New York Times quotes Prime Minister Ehud Olmert:
"I want to make clear that the event this morning is not a terror act, but an act of a sovereign state that attacked Israel without reason,” Mr. Olmert said. “The government of Lebanon, of which Hezbollah is a part, is trying to shake the stability of the region.” Israel is demanding that all three soldiers be returned and that militants stop firing rockets at Israelis from Gaza in the south and Lebanon in the north. But both Hamas and Hezbollah are holding out for an exchange for a large number of Palestinian and other Arab prisoners held by Israel.
The New York Sun, quotes Israel's army's chief of staff, Lieutenant General Dan Halutz, saying that the military operations being planned would "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years" if the kidnapped soldiers were not returned.

Israel threatens to reoccupy and strip of Lebanese land in the South. This will only relegitimize Hizbullah, which claims it is a legitimate Lebanese resistance movement fighting occupation. The bombing of the Beirut Airport will also serve to undermining the Lebanese government, not to isolate Hizbullah. By attacking the central government, Israel will push ordinary Lebanese onto Hizbullah's side, not deepen the divide between the two. This will speed up the collapse of Washington's Lebanon policy, which is to strengthen the central government and Hariri's Future Party. Olmert's need to prove his military toughness will undermine the West's standing in Lebanon and undermine its allies there. The central government in Beirut has no means to discipline or disarm Hizbullah, nor does the United States. George Bush tried to defend the Beirut government as Israel attacked it. This is not a good sign of unity. Syria and Hizbullah will play on this lack of unity for all they are worth in an effort to bring out the contradictions in Washington's policy: one-sided support for Israel and support for pro-American Arabs.

The US will expect pro-American governments in the region to condemn the Hizbullah action. But Saudi Arabi, Egypt, and the Lebanese governments will find themselves condemned by their own people if they take Israel's side in this fight.

Robin Wright of the Washington Post, who explains how the several Middle East crisis are all linked, explains that:
The White House said it is holding Iran and Syria responsible for the flare-up along Lebanon's border because of their long-standing support for Hezbollah. It charged that the seizure of two soldiers was deliberately timed to "exacerbate already high tensions in the region and sow further violence.

"Hezbollah's actions are not in the interest of the Lebanese people, whose welfare should not be held hostage to the interests of the Syrian and Iranian regimes," a statement said.
Robert Malley, of the international Crisis Group, explained why the US has so little leverage to stop the violence this time around. "By cutting off its relations with states such as Syria and Iran it has very little ability to convince them to do favors for Washington."
The Bush administration has few ways of directly pressuring Iran on any of the three fronts [Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria]. "They have sanctioned themselves out of leverage on Iran," Malley said. "They have cornered themselves out of a lack of influence on any of the parties that are driving this -- Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran. Counseling restraint or condemning actions is pretty meager when you think of the influence the United States should be wielding."

The United States reached out to Arab allies -- Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- to weigh in with Syria and, through Damascus, to Iran. In Paris for talks on Iran's nuclear program, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called on all sides to "act with restraint." She also talked to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora and U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan.

But the U.S. options stand in stark contrast to the U.S.-brokered cease-fires in 1993 and 1996 between Israel and Hezbollah, via Syria.


In the coming months, we can expect Syria to move more forcefully to the counter-attack. Syria feels confident that it has the upper hand for the first time since 2003.

Syria wants to show Washington what a failure it is. Thus, it will turn up the pressure on Washington just as Washington turned up the pressure on Syria over the last two years. Damascus is determined to demonstrate to Washington that there is a price to be paid for not dealing with Syria as a respected power in the region.

Washington thought it could roll Syria out of Lebanon, destroy Hamas, and force the Iraqi government to boycott Damascus. Asad will do what he can to demonstrate that Washington does not have the power to do this and will fail in its anti-Syrian policies. Only by cutting deals with Damascus can Washington hope to run a successful Middle East policy. This is Asad's goal.

Now that American influence and power in the region is on the decline, Asad's is on ascendant. He will make trouble for pro-US politicians in Lebanon and support Hizbullah, he will do what he can to keep Hamas alive, and he will try to broaden his relations with Iraqi politicians in an effort to get trade deals and oil flowing through the Syrian pipeline again. In Iraq, Syria has little interest in promoting violence, which it has little control over and which can come back to hurt it. But it will try to make itself useful to the Iraq government and powers on the ground in order to get trade flowing to strengthen Syria.

He must prove to Washington that only a policy of engagement, not isolation, will work.

110 Comments:

At 7/13/2006 12:39:00 PM, Blogger Hedonist said...

Israel is a soveriegn state and has every right to defend itself and its citizens from the people who boast to wipe out Israel from the world map. No country in today's world will spare the terrorists who spread religious hatred and kill innocent people in the name of Allah! People who occupy the so called "Palestinian authority" and often invoke "human rights abuses" do not respect any human rights laws themselves! Therefore, war mongers and terrorists need to be dealt with an iron hand.

Are Israeli actions in Gaza and Lebanon justified? Of course they are! Israel should not listen to radical extremists or far-left fanatics; it should stop listening to the EU and the UN anti-Israel biased crap. Israel should bring the WAR to Hamas and WIN it! Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah should also be killed!

A prisoner swap would be a major mistake. Israel should never do it. No nation should negotiate with Hamas or Hezbollah! Trading prisoners with a terrorist, bloody organizations such as Hamas or Hezbollah would be a major mistake that would cause a lot of damage to the future of state of Israel. Instead, Israeli leaders should order new incursions into the Gaza Strip and into Lebanon until the Hamas and the Hezbollah leaders free all Israeli soldiers. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz have already given the green light to additional incursions (good news!). Israel should do whatever is necessary to free all Israeli soldiers. If Hamas and Hezbollah fail to return these abducted soldiers, Israel should become even MORE aggressive; Khaled Mashaal (leader of Hamas) must be DESTROYED ASAP! Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah must be killed! Israel should attack Lebanon and Gaza with overwhelming force. Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government (though funded by Iran and Syria). As such Lebanon and its governement should be held accountable. Israel should also send a strong signal to Syria, Iran and other like-minded conutries that their support of Hezbollah's and Hamas' attacks and other radical islamic terrorists will be severely punished.

Religious terrorism is a dangerous neurosis that is trying to cripple this world through bombings and kidnappings. The reprisal needs to be far-reaching and intensive. Lebanon, Iran and Syria need to be shown the implications of harboring known terrorists. The only way to fight against islamic terrorism it is through guns, bombs and tanks. Diplomacy is only for civilized people; not for these pigs.

 
At 7/13/2006 12:54:00 PM, Blogger Nur-al-Cubicle said...

Are Israeli actions in Gaza and Lebanon justified? Of course they are!

Astonished that Hedonist can make such a claim, but delusion is delusion.

As area experts have pointed out, Israel has no strategy, just a drawer full of contingent military plans, which it is implementing. There is now a vacuum where the dream of Greater Israel (which was delusion in the first place) once stood. This is the Sharon legacy. The "clever" Israelis have maneuvered themselves into a box. Bombing Beirut, the airport, the airport tunnel-highway and threatening to bomb the Beirut-Damacus Highway, laden Lebanese refugees, is madness.

US Ambassador Jeffrey Feltman has lost all credibility, no more shall he bustle between Siniora, Sfeir and the grave of Rafic Hariri.

 
At 7/13/2006 01:16:00 PM, Blogger Atassi said...

to the PIG Hedonist
Israel has NO right to Kill any Lebanese or Palestinian peoples, The only reason someone like you posting this kind of arrogant posts, because the Arab states\ regimes are wreak and can't defends their citizen !!.
WE PROMISE YOU. People like You will be transformed to Pigs soon. Go and f yourself

 
At 7/13/2006 01:18:00 PM, Blogger annie said...

Hedonist says :
"Israel is a soveriegn state and has every right to defend itself "
Gee, two soldiers are captured and the country is in danger ?
"Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah should also be killed!"
Who is the terrorist here ?

Your country and the one that finances it are the two top terrorists in the world.
Leh la zazel where you belong ya mamzer

 
At 7/13/2006 01:26:00 PM, Blogger Nur-al-Cubicle said...

Of course Hedonist is posting from the safety of his one-room cabin in Montana.

 
At 7/13/2006 01:37:00 PM, Blogger why-discuss said...

Israel is a religious, racist, aggressive, colonialist and artificial state that should shame the jewish people. There is no place anymore in the world for it

 
At 7/13/2006 02:21:00 PM, Blogger Suleiman said...

If indeed the kidnapping of people is an act of war then the kililng of people must also be. So one can we can see why this has happened as Lebanon uncovered the Israeli killing squads. I am surprised that this was never mentioned in this blog





Death squad spy ring is captured
From Nicholas Blanford in Beirut



LEBANESE authorities have broken up an apparent Israeli spy ring whose members have claimed responsibility for a string of killings of Hezbollah and Palestinian militants since 1999.
The spies’ confessions, reported extensively in the Lebanese media, provide a rare glimpse into the clandestine battle between the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency and the Hezbollah organisation and its militant Palestinian allies.



In a bizarre twist Hussein Khattab, an alleged Palestinian member of the ring, who is still at large, is the brother of Sheikh Jamal Khattab, an Islamic cleric, who is accused of recruiting Arab fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.

The Israeli network was discovered after the killing last month of two Islamic Jihad officials, the brothers Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub, in a car bomb blast in Sidon, Lebanon. Lebanese intelligence officers last week arrested Mahmoud Rafeh, 59, a retired policeman from the Lebanese town of Hasbaya, his wife and two children, and discovered bomb-making materials, code machines and other espionage equipment in his home.

Mr Rafeh confessed to the killings of the Majzoubs and to working for Mossad since 1994. He also admitted that his cell was responsible for killing three leading Hezbollah commanders since 1999, as well as for the death of Jihad Jibril, the son of Ahmad Jibril, the head of the Damascus-based Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, who died in a car bomb in 2002.

The discovery of the ring is being hailed as Lebanon’s most successful counter-espionage operation in years and a is seen as a boost for its security apparatus after a year of political crisis, bomb attacks and murders of prominent Lebanese.

It is also opportune for Hezbollah, whose Lebanese opponents are pressuring it to dismantle its military wing. Hezbollah which says that its military wing must keep its weapons to counter the threat of Israeli aggression.

 
At 7/13/2006 02:25:00 PM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

I would like to divert from the above discussion on whether israel is evil or not and go back to the main point of the post.

One should mention that the situation is not so rosy for Syria. Damascus is walking a very thin and dangerous line right now. The US and Israel can turn the heat on Syria even more by directly attacking Syria. This will embarrass Damascus for its inability to defend its sovereignty.

But whatever happen there is one true loser in all of this (excluding the poor civilians who lost their lives) and that is March 14 group plus their Middle Eastern and international patrons. Because this situation has shifted the attention and much of the power away from the majority leaders in Beirut which have shown how insignificant their weight can be with their new US ally. But an all out war on multiple fronts will make their position even weaker. Because if, god forbid, it happens; March 14 and Anti-Syrian Arab governments will be forced to back Damascus against Israel. This is part of the intricate diplomacy in the region that will probably calm the situation rather sooner than later (hopefully).

I doubt this Israeli attack will turn more people against Hizbullah because the Lebanese have made up their mind about them long time ago and the pros/against voices will be just as vocal. I was living in Beirut when on two different occasions, both of which were summer (the height of the tourist season) when the Israeli’s hit the power plants of Lebanon and scared the tourists away. The only difference this time is that they have killed many civilians which will deal into Hizbullah’s hands.

 
At 7/13/2006 02:48:00 PM, Blogger Joseph ALi Mohammed said...

I think this is an opportunity the US and Israel, and Some Lebanese do have now to revive the talks in the Security Council to implement SC resolution 1559. I think this is what will take place tomorrow.

To be fair, it was Israel that had started the kidnapping and assassinations of Arab personalities and Arab people since 1970 using at times Helicopters landing in Lebanon and Tunisia, AND THAT WENT WITHOUT ANY ANGER FROM THAT sc THAT IS ALWAYS READY TO label Arab sides with the usual terrorists label.

Israel has been holding Syrian and Lebanese prisonners of war, and some Lebanese are detained from acts of kidnapping in peaceful times, not as a result of war.

So, who is more important: Hundreds of Arab kidnappees by Israel who have rottened in Israeli Jails, or 2-3 Israeli soldiers?

In all cases, the Syrian Regime has not moved a hair to liberate the Syrian prisonners of war, and does not even speak about them in any occasion, and I would say it is a coward regime using Hizballah and hamas to achieve political gaines, and it is not at all concerened by all the destruction in Lebanon, or in the palestinian territories, or the well being of the Syrian prisonners themselves. It is a regime that should be eleminated for the sake of humaninty what ever nationality that humanity might be: be it Lebanese, Syrian, palestinian, or Israeli.



I wouls say this: regardless of the opportunistic Syrian regime acts and position, there should be a solution for the individual Arab/israeli prisonners of war/of kidnapping, and no soldier or innocent people should stay until death in any prison. An immdeiate solution must be found for all of them.

 
At 7/13/2006 02:55:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

Israel will now distance Hezbollah from the border. It can either do that by a full-blown invasion to create a new and wider buffer zone (unlikely) or it will push to force an international intervention that would get the Lebanese army to deploy. Another possibility of course would be to ask for UN forces to permanently occupy the international line between the two countries just as it has done at the Golan Heights since the early 1970’s.

The prisoner swap is unlikely to be agreed by the young Olmert government, which is eager to shore up its tough image. Indeed, since the new prime minister does not have a military background, it is the IDF that have taken control of the decision process.

Israel attacked Lebanon’s infrastructure to turn the country’s people against Hezbollah.

This ordeal is unlikely to end quickly. The battle between the U.S and Israel on the one hand and the bearded men plus Bashar on the other has just kicked into high gear. As usual, weak Lebanon is, for now at least, the theater of operations. This should come as no surprise for a government that has allowed for a state to grow within its own state. When a government is unable to deploy its own forces to protect its own borders, it loses all control of its destiny.

In the mean time, the White House is supposedly urgently dispatching Elliot Abrams and David Welch to Israel. Rumors are that the U.S. would rather see Israel target Syria instead of continuing to undermine the already weak Lebanese government.

Whether Israel obliges to the rumored suggestions we shall all wait and see.

I am sure that Bashar will keep a close eye on his bedroom windows for any imminent signs of such an attack.

In the end, my own feeling is that Nasrallah has miscalculated. Israel and its backers have now received the green light to pursue their wider strategic goal of neutralizing Hamas and Hezbollah. This incident is likely to end up revising the party’s military status in Lebanon.

 
At 7/13/2006 03:08:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

Hizbullah attack military convoy not civilian,Isreal attacking,civilian,the PIG hedonist,is mad and frustraded, because he is jew,if Isreal continue this attack, this is escalation, it will require pan arabic response,other countries can be drawn to the conflict,the timing is G8 meeting,if France as they claim is Lebanon mother, this is the time to show it,Invasion means Syria has to be involved,attacking Syria means arab Isreali war is starting, it could mean more hard time to america in Iraq, USA must try to calm Isreal,not provoke it to attack Syria,what we need now is suicide bombs to bust the fire in Isreal gut

 
At 7/13/2006 03:56:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

The real sad thing in that story is that Israel is bombing the civilians and the infrastructure instead of beating the shit out of Nasrallah, who had it coming. I hope that they'll focus a little bit on Assad to since he calls the shot in the South.

 
At 7/13/2006 04:06:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

"Israel will now distance Hezbollah from the border. It can either do that by a full-blown invasion to create a new and wider buffer zone (unlikely) or it will push to force an international intervention that would get the Lebanese army to deploy."

Or ever simpler and more likely, the ISF will bomb HA's position in the South but the Islamist vermin will just hide behind the population they claim to protect and return to their positions in a few days (as they usually do).

I think that HA is embarrassed by the scale of the Israeli response, which clearly surprised everybody. It's not the fist kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Unlike what some people think here (including apologist in chief Joshua Landis), HA is under fire in Lebanon, outside its community at least. Just have a look on the Lebanese blogosphere anti-HA comments outnumber pro-Ha comments by at least 5 to 1.

 
At 7/13/2006 04:28:00 PM, Blogger blowback said...

vox populi - given that Hezbollah's community is now probably more than half the entire population of Lebanon, I suspect that there is a lot of popular support for Hezbollah's actions. The anti-Hezbollah bloggers area a few middle-class Western Wanabees among a sea of Shi'ite supporters.

BTW, the Israelis can't claim they weren't warned.

During a prisoner exchange between Hizbullah and Israel in 2004, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah vowed that if all Lebanese detainees were not freed from Israeli jails, Hizbullah would eventually abduct more Israeli soldiers. Fulfiling this pledge, Hizbullah on Wednesday captured two Israeli soldiers in an operation dubbed "Truthful Promise."

The article goes on

During a news conference on Wednesday, Nasrallah made another vow: that "no military operation will return" the two soldiers, and that only another prisoner swap will secure their freedom. Only a fool would doubt that Nasrallah now means what he says. The Israelis must therefore carefully weigh two difficult questions. Is it really worth it for them to continue keeping three Lebanese prisoners in jail? And is the mere chance of saving two soldiers really worth spilling more Israeli blood in another deadly military adventure in Lebanon?

Well is it?

This is why I suspect that Hezbollah rather than the Syrians originated this action. They saw Israel preoccupied with the Palestinians in Gaza and took advantage of that.

 
At 7/13/2006 05:12:00 PM, Blogger Alex said...

Can you think of a deal between the US and Syria to help partially get out of this, and other conflicts the Midlle East is suffering from?

Is it possible to come up with a deal that could be perceived to be beneficial to both Washington and Damsacus?

 
At 7/13/2006 06:52:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

vox populi - given that Hezbollah's community is now probably more than half the entire population of Lebanon,
"

really? You did a census all by yourself? Do you come from planet krypton?

 
At 7/13/2006 08:38:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

isreal can scream and yell,cry and shoot around, ,when their angre slow they will realize,the only way is to negotiate with sayed Hasan Nasrallah.

 
At 7/13/2006 08:39:00 PM, Blogger Fares said...

Ehasani man great analysis, I made your comment as post on my site so you are now a new contributor,

check it out

Alex I am very happy to see you back, must have been really tough to swallow Nasralla and his actions specially regarding your great opinions of him just 2 weeks ago.

Syria won't get any deal from this...they can dream on, it anything they would be rewarded by keeping the regime weak and able to imprison our heros who must be wondering how stupid Assad is burning up Lebanon.

Josh please stop rewarding stupidites and act like the 67 war heros who lost us everything, when can we ever learn.

 
At 7/13/2006 09:32:00 PM, Blogger blowback said...

vox populi - if you really know anything about Lebanon, you will know that they have not conducted a census in Lebanon since 1932 when the Christians had a slight majority. The so-called "National Pact" of 1943 stipulated that the seats in parliament should be divided 6/5 Christian/Muslim. The Taif agreement changed that so that there are now equal numbers of Christian and Muslim MPs. If they had a new census, the Christians would have substantially fewer MPs than they do now.

In 1997, the CIA estimated that the population of Lebanon was divided 30% Christian against 70% Muslim, while the 1997 Britannica Book of the Year estimates for 1996 the following:
Armenian Apostolic Church - 130,000(3.4%)
Greek Catholic - 130,000(3.4%)
Maronite - 760,000(20.3%)
Druze - 250,000(6.7%)
Greek Orthodox - 210,000(5.6%)
Shiite - 1,370,000(36.6%)
Sunni - 890,000(23.8%)
Total - 3,740,000

Given the fecundity of the Shi'ites and emigration among the Christians, it is probable that ten years later the Shi'ites are now the majority in Lebanon, and if they aren't already, they shortly will be.

Regardless, I would say that these figures are far more significant than your count of Lebanese bloggers.

 
At 7/13/2006 10:10:00 PM, Blogger whyowhy said...

When I taught pre-school a difficult concept for the 3-4 year olds to understand was that for every action there is a reaction.[also basic concept in physics.]
The problem too often in the world and especially in the middle east is that people have guns and bombs and missiles. Many want to create the chaos and hatred that result from such use of their "toys." And so they use them, always justified of course, and that creates a "reaction". This creates a new "reaction" to the original "reaction" and regretably innocent people get caught in the middle.

And as you all know only too well, there are many people who need to cause this harm and confusion because it is to their advantage, so they play with their toys, and people's lives....and the circle game continues...
when does it stop....why not use all your combined brilliance to play a new game here, come up with a new game plan, and resulting effects, that everyone, or most everyone can live with and accept....that should keep your brains and imaginations busy for a while... think of it as a political rubiks cube to solve...
good luck
in sha'alah

 
At 7/13/2006 10:54:00 PM, Blogger Nafdik said...

Why O Why do we have be lectured about how we should just hug each other and just stop acting like children.

"think of it as a political rubiks cube to solve..."

When the US was attacked once by a gang of 19 of thugs that were born mostly in Saudia Arabia, lead by a Saudi man, trained in Afghanistan, they send an army of 300 000 soldiers to invade ... Iraq???

Hummm, those Americans are really great at solving Rubik Cubes.

Why dont they just go and hug this Bin Laden fellow, he looks like a fun uncle and I am sure he would appreciate a hug.

 
At 7/13/2006 11:37:00 PM, Blogger Zenobia of the East and West said...

Blowback, nice rebuttal. There is no way in hell that Lebanon can reign in 40 percent of its population...especially without having ever paved the way for that segment to feel that its needs are ever going to be met by the Lebanese govt rather than its own sectarian leadership or the protection of Syria. That is a huge social problem...that only lebanon can solve.

Alex, what fantasy are you in?.....a deal between the USA and Syria, lol, when hell freezes over. the stupid ass US administration couldn't possibly do such a reasonable thing as that.....and their pride would never allow it.

This post is excellent.... and I would like to add that poor Lebanon is as Ehsani said the theater for the ME drama unfolding, but really I think it has little to do with it.
Frankly, Nasrallah didn't miscalculate at all. He was right on schedule.
People should blame this stupid f-ing United States government for the entire situation. Those arrogant men (plus Condi of course) in Washington got themselves so far up against a wall....that they are screwed. I agree with Joshua that the Syrian regime and Hezbollah know it...and are laughing their asses off...even though the Lebanese people and perhaps the syrian people will pay a big fat price.
This big struggle is clear as can be...one between Iran and America. And Iran has the upper hand here. The USA can't move an inch against Iran for myriad reasons, but the main one being that we are so fucked in Iraq already that the specter of a civil war turning around with the Shia population then coming to the aid of Iran is a nightmare beyond our imagination.
Ok so there you have it. The Iranian leaders are basking in this moment....in which it can play its cards ...down the line right through Damascus all the way to southern Lebanon. And meanwhile... the US needs its whore- Israel to do its bidding, the result being that the Palestinians in the occupied territories can continued to be tortured as the payment.
It is a sick situation, no doubt, but ultimately, the United States had all the power to do something different in this world....that would have had a totally different outcome....and those elitest amerocentric warmongering men in the Pentagon....couldn't resist carrying out their big grand world domination dreams...

As much as the Syrian people may be sabotaging themselves, they stand with their govt because this little country....dares...take on the beast...., and it is hard for me not to take some pleasure in that too.

oh,,,yeah,,,and this is the first time...i feel like giving Atassi a big kiss!.... for once we can agree on something....!

 
At 7/13/2006 11:48:00 PM, Blogger Nafdik said...

Zenobia,

I am not so sure about the US being in a corner. Certainly Israel is not. It now has carte blanche to strike Lebanon, Syria and Iran.

What this move did is simply give Israel more options. And I feel that Syria and especially Lebanon are now up for grabs should the Israelis decide to do anything. We dont like the look of this batallion, factory, school, stadium, house, barn, ice cream parlor? We will take it out, etc.

As for Syrians standing with or without their givernment. It actually has no bearing in the events as the government can do anything it wants anyways.

 
At 7/13/2006 11:59:00 PM, Blogger Zenobia of the East and West said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7/14/2006 12:06:00 AM, Blogger Zenobia of the East and West said...

i agree!....Israel is the bigger winner here....
that is, if we consider going down in history as a brut also....being a winner....

i happen to believe that all violence will come back to rot...whoever mets it out...
and if that is true, then well....Israel has carte blanche...and can give collective punishments..and inflict a lot of pain, but in the end her people have to live with that...legacy..

Hezbollah may know that Israel is going to inflict massive damage... but they obviously don't care, they are thinking of the leverage they can wield from this outcome....for their own power play within their own country....

Same goes for the USA. In this I mean, that at some point...the actions of the warmongers....only reap more destruction and thrashing from the ME... American ends up with more enemies...,and seen as a pariah by a lot of the world, criticized by even the Europeans. And in the end...as she comes out fighting from this corner - the only way out become use of superior fire and military might. And if American does not want her citizens killed in ground combat into the multi thousands (which the public won't tolerate) then the only alternative becomes massive weapons of destruction (sounds familiar..hmm)... and then...well....so much for that great philanthropist in the world...America, America.... .. what will her legacy be......

 
At 7/14/2006 01:17:00 AM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

Just got a weird thought

What if the over-reaction by the israeli's will be followed by an attack on Syria which will require a response from Iran as promised today, which in turn will require a response by the US & Israel to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. could this be the end game?

 
At 7/14/2006 01:19:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

Zenobia and Fares

If you think there is no way there could be "a deal" in the future between Syria and the US ... can you tell me what will happen over the next few months? ... then how will the current conflict "end"?

And I did not imply a deal that has to take place tomorrow ... But assuming one day they will stop being hostage to ego and pride limitations, how would you define a fair agreement between the two countries?

Fares, politics take time in the Middle East. So, to answer your question, I am not ready to share your instant negative judgement on Nasrallah. So far, the man has proven to be a first class strategist. I will wait and see. He might fail and he might succeed.

 
At 7/14/2006 01:25:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

Tarek,

It is a possibility, especially if you note how Israel is quickly escalating.

But I feel it is simply too much chaos for anyone to tolerate ... Jordan will be destroyed ... the Saudis will panic, Dubai?

I will make a weak guess in favor of a less dramatic outcome ...escalation in Lebanon, maybe a couple of symbolic hits inside Syria's borders. Syria won't reply.

Anything else ends in full destruction... I don't think so.

 
At 7/14/2006 01:27:00 AM, Blogger Enlightened One said...

This whole episode is f........
we currently have family including my wife in both lebanon and syria. They cant now get out.

Being of arab descent, i have always felt the we are embedded with a stupid gene, as a bully why would i antagonise and take on a bigger bully?

Narsrallah is a coward and a pathetic excuse for a leader, with no foresight, bashar throws him a bone and the faithfull dog laps it up!

Grow a brain Nasrallah if you and your pathetic following want to fight Israel go and do it from Syria.

I have no tolerance for this stupidity, and yes my background is muslim

 
At 7/14/2006 02:45:00 AM, Blogger t_desco said...

Update on the Hammoud case

Al-Ahram Weekly quotes "a senior Lebanese security source" to confirm a link between Hammoud and the al-Qa'ida cell allegedly headed by Khaled Taha:

"The security source confirmed that one of the eight alleged co- plotters, a Syrian, had an undisclosed connection to 13 alleged Al-Qaeda members who were arrested in Lebanon in December following a rocket attack on Israel from the south."
Al-Ahram Weekly

So perhaps Jamil the Syrian "vegetable vendor" and Jamil the Syrian "ingénieur électronicien" are the same person, after all?

 
At 7/14/2006 03:28:00 AM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

Alex,

It was a big "what if" i had literarly just woken up and i guess my mind went a little wild, but hey you never know.

But if you see my initial comment above in which i agree with you that the Pro-American countries in the region would press their masters not to escalate the situation

"But whatever happens there is one true loser in all of this (excluding the poor civilians who lost their lives) and that is March 14 group plus their Middle Eastern and international patrons. Because this situation has shifted the attention and much of the power away from the majority leaders in Beirut which have shown how insignificant their weight can be with their new US ally. But an all out war on multiple fronts will make their position even weaker. Because if, god forbid, it happens; March 14 and Anti-Syrian Arab governments will be forced to back Damascus against Israel. This is part of the intricate diplomacy in the region that will probably calm the situation sooner rather than later (hopefully)."

And today, in an unprecedented move, Riyadh put the blame on Hizbullah, which proves my point. The Saudi's are pissed for belittling their Lebanese assets in such a manner. And now they might have to invite Bashar Al-Assad onto the big boys table after working so hard with Mubarak to kick him off that club.

 
At 7/14/2006 04:06:00 AM, Blogger Zenobia of the East and West said...

Tarek,

I don't think it is such a far fetched end game at all.....I think it is quite possible that this is the design laid out in the playbook. However, it is an endgame that will end in catastrophe..... and as I maintained above... the US would be even more up shit creek. The military knows that, and that is why they are discouraging the Pentagon from even considering such a bombing campaign.
I think this may be the design of some, but it would never succeed. It will backfire somehow... the damages are just too great and the repercussions will consume any desired effects.

 
At 7/14/2006 07:06:00 AM, Blogger why-discuss said...

Israel keeps blaming Syria and Iran and they end up by destroying the infrastructures of Lebanon. What a coward country! they prefer to attack the weak one as they do no dare attacking countries who have planes and military power and can inflict them considerable damage. Israel deserves only contempt

 
At 7/14/2006 09:33:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

In general, countries with larger armies who do not have the international Green light, or do not wish to, go to war against each other, usually compete or pass messages through a third party. The cold war between the US and the USSR was conducted that way.

 
At 7/14/2006 09:37:00 AM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

This is what Israel’s ambassador to Spain was quoted saying this morning:

Israel will “change the rules of the game in the southern part of Lebanon”. There will be “no more Hezbollah near our border”.

This is consistent with what I had written earlier when I suspected that “this incident is likely to end up revising the party’s military status in Lebanon.

The Independent of London argues that the airport was hit to prevent any attempts to transfer the two soldiers out of Lebanon.

Dr. Landis,

I have a suggestion for your next article. I was going to write it but I think that you could a much better job than I would.

In my opinion, what we are witnessing is the “transfer of power from Arab and Palestinian nationalists to radical Islamists when it comes to the fight with Israel”.

This is a significant long-term development that has not been given enough attention. Israel has clearly taken notice. Following the fall of Saddam, radical Islamists led by Iran have sensed a vacuum in leadership and decided to fill it. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the new Iraq can now only watches from a distance as the bearded men plus Bashar grab the baton of standing up against Israel and the west. Judging by the sentiment of the so-called Arab street, this is going to a very easy fight to sell to the Arab and Islamic world. Bin Laden must be watching in envy how this group has taken over the leadership role of the mother of all fights. Gone is the need for big armies that can easily be destroyed by the Israeli F-16’s. It is now two failing states outsourcing the fight to bearded men who can hide in the midst of their poor populace. The F-16’s are not well equipped to conduct this fight.

Sir,

I cannot help but notice how much support these new leaders of the fight seem to be receiving from most people on this forum as well as the so-called Arab street at large.

This is regrettable, if not alarming. While it may make us sleep better at night knowing that we finally have someone who can stand up to Israel and America in a way that can restore back some of our dignity and pride, the long term repercussions of this transfer of power seem to be largely overlooked. This writer cannot help but feel concerned and even alarmed by the ascendancy of bearded men (yes. I love the term) in our society.

As to Bashar, he seems to have it both ways. He hits them hard at home but uses them to advance his foreign policy goals at will. Let us hope and pray that this juggling act of his has a happy ending.

 
At 7/14/2006 09:46:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

Very good point Ehsani.

Robert Fisk wrote int eh Independent today:

Israel held the powerless Lebanese government responsible - as if the sectarian and divided cabinet in Beirut can control Hizbollah. That is Syria's message. Fouad Siniora, Lebanon's affable Prime Minister, may have thought he was running the country but it is President Bashar Assad in Damascus who can still bring life or death to a land that lost 150,000 lives in 15 years of civil conflict.
And there is one certain bet that Syria will rely on; that despite all Israel's threats of inflicting "pain" on Lebanon, this war will run out of control until - as has so often happened in the past - Israel itself calls for a ceasefire and releases prisoners. Then the international big-hitters will arrive and make their way to the real Lebanese capital - Damascus, not Beirut - and appeal for help.


As for the long term, there is potential for disaster if the different sides do not ease it a bit on their national pride and personal ego.

The Americans can not afford to lose to "the bearded men"

The Israelis must be always victorious after they punish their enemies.

The Syrians never fail in their foreign policies. They must succeed in this one too.

Nasrallah promised that he will get what he wants afterall.

Iran will teach the Americnas a lesson or two about how to conduct policy in the middle East.

Is there a way out without hurting the ego of a couple of the above?

 
At 7/14/2006 09:47:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Haha! Well it's not everyday that a Syrian tries to teach me about the history of my own country.

 
At 7/14/2006 09:53:00 AM, Blogger Metaz K. M. Aldendeshe said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7/14/2006 10:14:00 AM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

Vox,

As much as I love Lebanon, I cannot help but wonder if this is a real country.

The first prerequisite to a sovereign nation is for it to have a monopoly over all armed forces within its borders. When a nation cannot defend its own borders and instead allows a so-called political party to form a state within its own state then one has to question its long term viability and survival.

It is easy of course to blame Syria and Iran for creating this monster in the first place. But, these parties would not have succeeded in this endeavors had the land not been fertile enough for them. Without a strong central government that can exercise full responsibility and control over its citizens, Lebanon will forever remain the theater of operations for the bigger regional players who are more than happy to use this lovely place as a launching pad for their foreign strategic objectives.

Lebanon has a lot to offer to its citizens as well the many tourists who have come to love visiting it. But, unless it can produce leaders who are willing to exercise monopoly over all armed forces within its territory and take full control of its borders, it will be very hard for it to become a real country. Then again, if it does have the strong central government that I am advocating, will it be the lovely Lebanon we all know today?

 
At 7/14/2006 11:16:00 AM, Blogger Fares said...

Alex you wrote:

"So, to answer your question, I am not ready to share your instant negative judgement on Nasrallah. So far, the man has proven to be a first class strategist. I will wait and see. He might fail and he might succeed."

For some one who wants a better Middle East and some reforms you continue to amaze me big time...

So you don't care if Bashar and Nasrallah burn up an entire country Lebanon so you can enjoy your strategist in action.

Well I have a better solution why don't we burn up Syria and change the regime so may be it will emerge to my liking. Are you a regime supporter no matter how many people get killed and lives get destroyed, and don't give me any lecture about Israel, we know them very well.

I can't believe that some one as smart and knowledgable as you are outsources his views to the like of Nasrallah and Iranian stooges in Damascus.

Zenobia, you analysed things very well and that's not very promising for the region. We know these facts so why venture and provoke the enemy!!!

Ehasani your views on the Islamists are right on...we are stuck in the middle, but we allow these things to happen and go backward every year because all we care about is stand up to Israel (and the big powers) with only illetarate people at the helm of leadership both in Iran and Syria, destorying everything in the process...then you have people like Alex defending what is going on and saying there is no other way...like it is a chess game...

Enjoy the extra world cup of death

 
At 7/14/2006 11:17:00 AM, Blogger t_desco said...

"The Independent of London argues that the airport was hit to prevent any attempts to transfer the two soldiers out of Lebanon."

Ehsani, your willingness to defend Israel's actions and to buy into Israeli propaganda is very surprising.

BTW, I tried to find the article in The Independent and instead I found this:

"The Israeli army said it targeted the airport and highway to prevent Hezbollah militants from transporting the two soldiers to Syria or Iran, ... a statement said."
dpa

Oh, but perhaps you just confused the Israeli army and The Independent. Fog of war, I assume?

 
At 7/14/2006 11:19:00 AM, Blogger Akbar Palace said...

Our resident Syrian mouthpiece and academic states:

Damascus is determined to demonstrate to Washington that there is a price to be paid for not dealing with Syria as a respected power in the region.

And Washington is determined to demonstrate to Syria that there is a price to be paid for supporting terrorism.

Considering 9-11 and our current administration, I'm betting on the US this time.

 
At 7/14/2006 11:31:00 AM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

t-desco,

First, it is the UK telegraph and not the independent (by con Coughlin). Forgive me for citing the incorrect source by accident.

This error does not give you the right to make idiotic remarks about a fog of war.

Your claim that I do nothing but defend Israel and its propaganda is nothing but another idiotic statement. Please take your takhween elsewhere buddy.

Why don’t you just stick to you Al-Qaeda killed Harriri theory and leave serious discussions alone.

If you were trying to provoke me, I am more than happy to do so

 
At 7/14/2006 11:45:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

"Vox,

As much as I love Lebanon, I cannot help but wonder if this is a real country."

Don't wonder. Like most the countries in the region, it's not a real country. But it's the only one I have.


I just read this by the way.

" Hizbullah has launched rockets on IDF barracks in the Golan Heights. "

Great. Hezbollah going to liberate Palestine, the Golan and the Shebaa farms all by itself.

 
At 7/14/2006 12:20:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

the arab summit will be useless,we know what they will say, the arab leaders will be loosers.
can the united nation send troops to lebanon,without the approval of the lebanese goverment, who will refuse, can Isreal invade Lebanon,without american approval, this will give the syrian a pretext to go back to Lebanon,the lebanese goverment will collapse soon,Junblat,Hariri and JA'ja will be marginalized, the tourism,is finished this year,in Lebanon,the Isreali CAPTURED prisonrers of war,can be quickly and safely hidden in lebanon or elswhere,Isreal must know ,it is dealing with smart,determined,strategicaly clever Nassrallah,at the end Isreal know they will sit humble at the feet of Nasrallah, begging for exchange of prisoners, Amaerica will pay for Isreal caused damages.

 
At 7/14/2006 12:33:00 PM, Blogger Dr Victorino de la Vega said...

It’s a real tragedy of Shakespearian proportions

And these few precepts in thy memory
See thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue, [no doubt a prophetic criticism of Lebanon’s Druze war-criminal-in-chief W.K. Jumblatt, a fervent admirer of George W. Bush]
Nor any unproportion’d thought his act. [that one is for Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah’s lunatic leader maximo]
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
The friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch’d, unfledg’d comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel; but being in,
Bear’t that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice; [a precept the puppet President of the United States a.k.a. Impotent POTUS and his Neocon handlers should meditate before handing America’s Mideast policy to Ehud Olmert on a silver plate]
Take each man’s censure, but reserve thy judgement.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy, [100+ Lebanese civilian deaths in exchange for the life of 2 miserable Druzo-Israeli soldiers…well that’s a steep price to pay for the latest Hezbollah-sponsored summer festival]
But not express’d in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station [unlike say effeminate East-Beirut Christian bourgeois types, the aspiring revolutionary Ayatollahs of Lebanon have shunned the decadent outfits produced by Parisian couture houses for the pristine pashmina headscarves of Persepolis]
Are most select and generous in that.

(Hamlet, Act I, Scene III)

 
At 7/14/2006 12:37:00 PM, Blogger Metaz K. M. Aldendeshe said...

Landis, there was nothing wrong with my comment, you have no right to remove it. There is one thing for sure you can bet at. You will be treated in kind. Nothing will ever change that rulling for me ever again.

 
At 7/14/2006 01:01:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

isreali military ship is sinking opposit Beirut

 
At 7/14/2006 01:20:00 PM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

If you have not been watching Al Jazeera in the last 30 minutes you have missed one hell of a show. Nasrallah spoke and promised to hit the israeli ships minutes later there are reports of these ships being attacked.

 
At 7/14/2006 01:21:00 PM, Blogger t_desco said...

Ehasani, are you unable to read? Hampered by all the fog of war perhaps?

You write:

"Your claim that I do nothing but defend Israel and its propaganda..."

Why do you need distortions to make your point?

I never made such a claim, of course. I just said that I was very surprised that you bought into the Israeli propaganda that the airport in Beirut was hit because they wanted to prevent the "transfer the two soldiers out of Lebanon". As an economist you should understand that the airport was attacked in order to hit Lebanon's economy, particularly the tourism sector. And your common sense should have told you that the likelihood of Hizbullah using this airport to evacuate the solders was very small.

Again, I am really surprised that you would buy that easily into Israeli propaganda.

I am also saddened to discover that you don't know your Clausewitz (or rather, you don't understand the term "fog of war"):

"The fog of war is the lack of knowledge that occurs during a war. Most importantly, it refers to each side's uncertainty about the enemy's capabilities and plans, but it also includes the chaos that can occur in one's own forces, for instance when a unit misinterprets its orders, or takes a wrong turn and becomes lost.

The term is ascribed to the Prussian military analyst Carl von Clausewitz, who wrote: "The great uncertainty of all data in war is a peculiar difficulty, because all action must, to a certain extent, be planned in a mere twilight, which in addition not infrequently — like the effect of a fog or moonshine — gives to things exaggerated dimensions and unnatural appearance."
Wikipedia

I won't recommend you to "stick to" your economic musings as, frankly speaking, you may have a good general knowledge of economic theory, but you obviously don't have even the most basic knowledge of development economics/transition economies and the scientific debate in that field. In your position I would be absolutely embarrassed to write about topics that are clearly beyond your knowledge (that doesn't mean that you couldn't acquire that knowledge by reading some good books/scientific articles).

 
At 7/14/2006 01:53:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

t-desco,

Good counter attack, congratulations.

I started to write a rebuttal but I decided to give you the last word.

 
At 7/14/2006 02:14:00 PM, Blogger blowback said...

I think Hezbollah has just delivered a master class in 4th Generation Warfare. Two years ago Nasrallah announced that he would take more Israelis hostage if all Lebanese prisoners in Israel weren't released. The Israelis hang on to three Lebanese prisoners, probably because the racism inherent in Zionism leads them to believe that Nasrallah (a dirty Arab) will not keep his word. Hezbollah start watching and waiting along Israel's border with Lebanon and eventually they see their opportunity and they take it. As Hezbollah had a window of opportunity of hours if not minutes, I suspect that operational command for this action was with the Hezbollah fighters on the border, as Hezbollah do not have the secure and sophisticated Control, Command and Communications systems that we are all familiar with from Hollywood blockbusters.

The Hezbollah fighters go in hard and kill some of their targets and capture others (I suspect that Hezbollah would rather have captured all of them). Within a very short time, the two captives are whisked across the border and hidden away. All fairly standard operating practice for any 4G fighters. Then comes the lesson for the Israelis, Hezbollah know that Israel will launch immediate actions to recover the captives so Hezbollah have prepared a number of surprises for the Israelis the first of which is successful within a few hundred meters of the border when a Merkava tank is totally destroyed. End of Israel's land intervention in Lebanon. Bear in mind that Israel losing eight soldiers in a single piddling operation is equivalent to the UK losing 100 or the US losing 500 (i.e. a serious loss). Also, the racism inherent in Zionism would blind the Israelis to the fact that Hezbollah (dirty Arabs again) might consider a counteraction to Israel's incursion. All Israel can do is send over high-flying aircraft and drop a few bombs with the pathetic excuse that they are bombing the airport and Beirut-Damascus highway and blockading the ports because they have concrete proof that Hezbollah will transfer the prisoners to Iran. Thus demonstrating that the Israeli government is a bunch of wankers, if they expect people to believe this.

While Israel might consider going back into Lebanon at a later date on a punitive raid, it will be a far bigger and better planned operation but by that time Hezbollah will have disappeared back into the local population.

Hezbollah have learnt a number of lessons in the last few days the principal one is that if they disarm Israel will be able to do what they like in Lebanon so I had a really good laff when I heard that one of Israel's conditions for stopping the bombing was for Hezbollah to disarm. Again, the Israelis are demonstrating with this that they are a bunch of wankers.

Perhaps in future with operations like this, Hezbollah should add a condition that, as well as the main conditions for settlement, Israel should pay for all the damage it causes.

<sarcasm>BTW, under the Geneva Convention, this was a perfectly legitimate guerilla operation while Israel's response which consisted of collective punishment of the Lebanese is a war crime and terrorism so I hope the US State Department will now list the Israeli Government as a terrorist organization.</sarcasm>

 
At 7/15/2006 05:02:00 AM, Blogger Philip I said...

New post by Philip I

"Love Your Enemy"

[ viarecta.blogspot.com ]

 
At 7/15/2006 05:59:00 AM, Blogger M. Simon said...

It takes Israel about six days to fully mobilize.

Be patient my friends interesting times ahead.

I predict a regime change in Syria.

I believe by Monday or Wednesday there will be a whole new set of lessons being learned.

The military geniuses in Hizbollah have six days to run wild (they have already used up three. They ought to enjoy it while they can.

 
At 7/15/2006 06:04:00 AM, Blogger M. Simon said...

blowback,

I will admit that Hizbollah is very good against an army that is not fully mobilized. Be patient my friend. Hezbollah will get a chance to learn some new lessons the old fashioned way.

 
At 7/15/2006 06:05:00 AM, Blogger t_desco said...

Ehsani, I invite you to also point out my mistakes when I commit them (as I inevitably will). As a result we will all benefit.

Amal Saad-Ghorayeb argues in the Guardian that the idea of a prisoner exchange was indeed the main reason for Hizbullah's operation:

"The prisoners Hizbullah wants released are hostages who were taken on Lebanese soil. In the successful prisoner exchange in 2004, Israel held on to three Lebanese detainees as bargaining chips and to keep the battle front with Hizbullah open. These detentions have become a cause celebre in Lebanon. In a recent poll, efforts to effect their release attracted majority support, much more even than the liberation of Shebaa Farms, the disputed corridor of land between Syria and Lebanon still occupied by Israel.

The domestic significance of these hostages is ignored by those who choose to reduce the abductions to an act of solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza. Indeed Israel's media are aware of recent attempts to capture soldiers, including a botched attempt a few months ago in which three Hizbullah fighters were killed. Hizbullah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, confirmed the attack took five months to plan. Its timing was probably a coincidence. It would seem, though, Hizbullah exerts some influence over the fighters in Gaza - those who captured Corporal Shalit were at the very least inspired by Hizbullah.

The regional significance of the abductions has also been misconstrued. To suggest Hizbullah attacked on the orders of Tehran and Damascus is to grossly oversimplify a strong strategic and ideological relationship."
The Guardian

It is interesting to see that As'ad AbuKhalil who usually welcomes such operations (at least that is my impression) is now saying that as a result of their action Nasrallah and Hizbullah find themselves in "a critical situation":

"Certainly, he and Hizbullah face a critical situation. I have been communicating (via phone and email) with friends and family in Lebanon. There are clear indications of rising anger at Hizbullah among some segments of the Lebanese population, fueled not only by the brutal and savage campaign by Israel on all of Lebanon but also by the propaganda of clients of US/Saudi Arabia: Hariri, Jumblat (and his little puppets who have spent a life-time perfecting servitude to Syrian mukhabarat), and the Saudi media. (Hariri and Jumblat amount now to little more than cheap tools of the House of Saud in Lebanon). Many people who were previously sympathetic if not to Hizbullah but for the notion of resistance have been in the last two days questioning the wisdom of Hizbullah attack on an Israeli military target. And the ability of Hizbullah, despite the obvious military superiority of Israel-in-occupation-of-Palestine, to cause harm and damage to Israel in response to Israel's savagery in Lebanon has been hitherto minimal, especially when measured by those who are on the receiving end of Israeli massive and indiscriminate bombings."
As'ad AbuKhalil

 
At 7/15/2006 08:22:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

"knowing that even its Christian enemies in Lebanon could not condemn it for sacrificing Lebanon's infrastructure and all important tourist season."

You're making an error here Joshua. First of all, it's not the Christians that are against Hezbollah it's all the country. The Sunnis I know all told me that HA had it coming, and a lot of politicians have already criticized Hezbollah on this, openly like Jumblat or Moawad, or implicitly by refusing to associate themselves with the kidnapping like Siniora.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:06:00 AM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

even though i hate advertising (but i know Josh does not mind)

i have posted this there are reports that Israel is preparing a land invasion into lebanon

 
At 7/15/2006 10:25:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

Fares, I continue to amaze you big time because you continue to interpret me the wrong way, big time.

You seem to be always convinced of the absolute accuracy of the way you decided to define what is just, fair, human, and even wise.

No matter what, who, why, where and when, you will then decide to get mad at ... the Syrian regime and the "bearded men".

I'm sorry if I happen to disagree with you half the time. Perhaphs this time I am simply undecided if Nasrallah miscalculated or not. Can you allow me the luxury to say ... I will wait and see?

As for this week's events... So far Lebanon lost 100 dead innocent people and an estimated 4 Billion Dollars. You asked if I am happy to see that. Did I ask you the past few months if you were happy to see the innocent Palestinians being killed by the Israeli soldiers? Did I ask you if you care about those who died in Sudan or in Ruanda and Burundi? In Iraq?

People will be killed every day on earth because every day there is some country or party who feel the need to flex their muscles or to silence their enemies by force.

I will not get into the details of the Arab Israeli conflict, but if I had a couple of hours, I think I can explain to you why I am not furious at Nasrallah's decision to capture the two Israeli soldiers. Long term, there can be lifes saved by what is happening today. I leave it up to your imagination to think how.

In the mean time, I have relatives in Lebanon just like you do. So I do not differentiate much between Lebanon and Syria.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:54:00 AM, Blogger Philip I said...

From Philip I [viarecta.blogspot.com]

SNP love your enemy. See post on via recta.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:09:00 AM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

it was Isreal who kidnaped lebanese and jailed for long time, that started this conflict.there are 10,000 prisonrs of Arab ,in Isreal jails.
the Arab masses must punish those arab leaders who oppose the justified resistance.a very strong anti isrea statement is demanded from arab league meeting.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:11:00 AM, Blogger blowback said...

Israel is quite capable of invading Lebanon and 'capturing' Beirut. It does not have the manpower or the wealth to remain in occupation. I am sure that the same applies to Syria. Haven't any you supporter of Israel learnt any lessons from Iraq. Just to remind you, the most powerful army in the world is bogged down in a quagmire there, with a civil war that the Americans created, going on around it. Since the civil war is happening in large part because one side (the Sunnis) feel that the other side (the Shi'ites) is not doing enough to evict the invaders (the US). If Israel invades Lebanon or Syria, I strongly suspect that the Shi'ites will start attacking the US forces on a massive scale. At that point, possibly, the civil war ends and it becomes a war of national liberation on the Americans.

It used to be an adage among lawyers that you shouldn't ask a question of a witness unless you already know the answer. The same applies to war. Don't start a war unless you know what the outcome is going to be. With Iraq, there are some who now argue that Bush understood the outcome of invading Iraq and has got what he wanted. I don't subscribe to that view as I believe the racist attitudes towards Arabs (from reading The Arab Mind by Raphael Patai) led the neo-cons to believe that the Iraqis would be so impressed by the US show of force that the would welcome the American invaders with chocolates and flowers (actually, it was probably bread, salt and water in the fevered minds of some neo-cons***).

Does the Israeli government fully understand the likely consequences of invading Lebanon and Syria such as a renewed civil war in Lebanon and the creation of an Islamic state in Syria. Perhaps they do but they will go ahead anyway to 'balkanize' the Middle East. But they should remember that the Balkans destroyed five empires (yes, I do know Austria and Hungary, France, Germany
, Great Britain and Russia still exist as countries but their empires are gone).

 
At 7/15/2006 11:21:00 AM, Blogger blowback said...

Vox Populi, would you please stop generalizing about the thoughts of the Lebanese. As a previous post of mine explained it is very unlikely that all of Lebanon is opposed to Hezbollah's action. The Christians and Sunnis are both minorities in Lebanon. Perhaps you ignore the opinions of the large number of Shi'ites in Lebanon because they aren't either Lebanese or real people. Either way, this shows you to be a closet racist.

On the otherhand, I strongly suspect the many Shi'ites do not want war but that does not mean they don't support it. As far as I can see, at the moment, the only people who relish war are the neo-cons and that is because they are safely sat at home, eating Cheetos, drinking Kool-Aid and manning their keyboards in defence of their basements.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:29:00 AM, Blogger Innocent_Criminal said...

Blowback,

Dont worry about Vox he has come out of the closet long time ago. he is proud of his racism and has no problem flaunting it, dont waste your time.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:55:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

The Mideast death dance

Hamas and Hezbollah, Lebanon and Palestine, Syria and Iran, the U.S. and Israel: Unless these four pairs of actors turn away from their failed policies, the Middle East will sink further into violence and despair.

By Rami G. Khouri
Salon.com
Jul. 15, 2006
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/07/15/fourpairs/


You need to understand the relationship among four pairs of actors to grasp the meaning of the escalating attacks by Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel in recent days. The four pairs are Hamas and Hezbollah; the Palestinian and Lebanese governments; Syria and Iran; and Israel and the United States.

Simplistically, President George W. Bush has depicted this latest round of war as a clash between good and evil, while the Israeli government has tried to blame Palestinians and Lebanese who only want to make war against a peace-loving Israel. The more nuanced and complex reality is that, collectively, these four pairs of actors play roles in the ongoing fighting, as we witness the culmination of four decades of failed policies that have kept the Middle East tense, angry and violent.

Hezbollah and Hamas emerged in the past decade as the main Arab political forces that resist the Israeli occupations in Lebanon and Palestine. They enjoy substantial popular support in their respective countries, while at the same time eliciting criticisms for their militant policies that inevitably draw harsh Israeli responses. We see this in Lebanon today as the Lebanese people broadly direct their anger at Israel for its brutal attacks against Lebanese civilian installations and fault Palestinians, other Arabs, Syria and Iran for perpetually making Lebanon the battleground for other conflicts -- but more softly question Hezbollah's decision to trigger this latest calamity.

It is no coincidence that Israel is now simultaneously bombing and destroying the civilian infrastructure in Palestine and Lebanon, including airports, bridges, roads, power plants, and government offices. It claims to do this in order to stop terror attacks against Israelis, but in fact the past four decades have shown that its policies generate exactly the opposite effect: They have given birth, power, credibility and now political incumbency to the Hamas and Hezbollah groups whose raison d'être has been to fight the Israeli occupation of their lands. Israeli destruction of normal life for Palestinians and Lebanese also results in the destruction of the credibility, efficacy and, in some cases, the legitimacy of routine government systems, making the Lebanese and Palestinian governments key actors in current events -- or non-actors in most cases.

The Lebanese and Palestinians have responded to Israel's persistent and increasingly savage attacks against entire civilian populations by creating parallel or alternative leaderships that can protect them and deliver essential services. With every new Israeli attack against the Hamas and Hezbollah leadership or the civilian populations, four important things happen, and will probably happen during this round of war: The Lebanese and Palestinian governments lose power and impact; Hamas and Hezbollah garner greater popular support, which enhances their effectiveness in guerrilla and resistance warfare; they expand their military technical capabilities (mainly longer-range missiles and better improvised explosive devices); and the anti-Israel, anti-U.S. resistance campaign led by Hamas and Hezbollah generates widespread political and popular support throughout the Middle East and much of the world.

This is linked to the third pair of actors, Syria and Iran, who have carefully and patiently positioned themselves as allies, patrons, hosts, financiers, armorers and ideological brothers of Hamas and Hezbollah. While these two Islamist groups are primarily driven by local resistance to Israel, and are Palestinian and Lebanese in their basic identity, they both play important roles in the foreign policies of Iran and Syria.

We now witness strong convergence between two parallel but linked trends: The sovereign state actors, Iran and Syria, are fighting deadly political battles against Israel, the United States and, increasingly, Europe, while Hamas and Hezbollah fight similar battles against the same foes. It makes eminent sense, from the perspective of Damascus and Tehran, to foment greater troubles now for the United States and Israel along the Lebanon-Israel border. This is an opportune time to strike because Israel is deeply perplexed about how to handle Hamas' resistance in Palestine, and the United States seems unable to offer any policy other than to support Israel's right to defend itself while withholding the same right from Lebanese and Palestinian civilians.

The fourth pair of actors, the United States and Israel, find themselves in the bizarre position of repeating policies that have consistently failed for the past 40 years. Israel has this to show for its track record of being tough: It is now surrounded by two robust Islamist resistance movements with greater striking power and popular support; Arab populations around the region that increasingly vote for Islamist political movements whenever elections are held; immobilized and virtually irrelevant Arab governments in many nearby lands; and determined, increasingly defiant, ideological foes in Tehran and Damascus who do not hesitate to use all weapons at their means however damaging these may be to civilians and sovereignty in Lebanon and Palestine.

The United States for its part is strangely marginal. Its chosen policies have lined it up squarely with Israel. It has sanctioned and thus cannot even talk to Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas, and it has pressured and threatened Syria for years without any real success. The world's sole superpower is peculiarly powerless in the current crisis in the Middle East.

As long as these four pairs of main actors persist in their intemperate policies, the consequences will remain grim. The way to break this cycle is for all actors to negotiate a political solution that responds to their legitimate grievances and demands. Everyone involved seems prepared to do this, except for Israel and the United States, who rely on military force, prolonged occupations, and diplomatic sanctions and threats. What will Israel and the United States do when there are no more Arab airports, bridges and power stations to destroy? The futility of such policies should be clear by now, and therefore a diplomatic solution should be sought seriously for the first time.

Copyright © 2006 Rami G. Khouri / Agence Global

 
At 7/15/2006 01:03:00 PM, Blogger blowback said...

The bread, salt and water in one of my previous posts referes to the way that Ukrainian peasants wecomed the Germans during the invasion of the Soviet Union for evicting the Communists. Many have argued that if the Germans had channeled this support, they might not have lost the war, but that is the problem for racists, racism trumps everything else. I am sure that the neo-cons thought they would not make the same mistake.

 
At 7/15/2006 03:19:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

Israel’s image of invincibility will be forever tarnished unless it can deliver an unequivocal body blow to Hezbollah during this round.

Hezbollah, on the other hand, will become the hero of the Islamic world if it can survive this ordeal.

Bashar is the current king. He is the only one who can stop this madness. Bush has publicly asked him to do so. What is missing from Bush’s plea of course is the incentive factor. Namely, Bashar would want to know what he could expect to get in return for his trouble.

The current signs do not point in the direction of an Israeli attack on Syria.

If I were Bashar, I would be drafting a list of demands to be submitted to Bush and the Lebanese government. Only when such demands are met, can they expect Hezbollah to call it a day and hand back the two soldiers.

Should we expect the above list to include forgetting the Hariri investigation and the so-called international tribunal? Absolutely.

Should the list include the promise to rein in Hezbollah and hence entering Lebanon from the backdoor? You bet.

Should the list include a promise to drop any notion of a regime change? No doubt.

A lot of people may have their blood boil if this became reality. It may sound inconceivable. Then again, Bashar may already be writing up the list as we speak.

 
At 7/15/2006 03:41:00 PM, Blogger Ausamaa said...

Day Number four is coming to an end. Four days full of pain and suffering but:
1- Hizbullah is still there, alive - and apparently well- and sending his greetings southwards (as far as Tibries so far) and even westwards to you know what...
2- Syria has not been touched, instead, its been "begged" by Dubya and Condi to interfere (never mind it was asked to get out and stay out few months ago). Of course we can not guarantee that a confrontation is not a possible option for both sides.
3- Egypt, Jordan, KSA on the run (i.e., the Dubbya Camp"). But only after Amer Mousa have pulled a fast one on them and made them think that they have found what might give them breathing space. That is,untill the Big Boss realizes how a bad and an embarassing a blunder they have made and what corner they have put him during an election period.
4- Only, Siniora and Olmert do not see the writing on the wall and are still stupidly gambling on disarming Hizbullah either through thier useless bombing or through a nicely concocted UN cease fire-cum-disarming Hizbullah plan.Only problem with this is; who will "physically" take the guns out of Hizbullah's hands?

Let us see what Sunday shall bring...????

More bombing; More resistance..I bet.

 
At 7/15/2006 03:47:00 PM, Blogger Ausamaa said...

Oooops,...sorry, but I have forgot to even mention the return of the two -or should I say the three- missing soldiers!

It is what all this is about, is it not??!!!!!!

 
At 7/15/2006 04:47:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

In conflicts like this,new credible leaders will emerge, defeatist will soon go away.

 
At 7/15/2006 06:06:00 PM, Blogger Innoceent-Criminal Scum said...

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POSTER SAID:
This is what Israel’s ambassador to Spain was quoted saying this morning:
Israel will “change the rules of the game in the southern part of Lebanon”. There will be “no more Hezbollah near our border”.

SNP SSS REPLY
Israel is too weak, small and irrelevant country, and Jews are cowards, they have been kicked out from Lebanon once and they will be kicked out again. YOU LOST, TAKE YOUR LOSSES AND LICK YOUR WOUND.

And even if the impossible happened and Hizbullah removed from the south, Al Qaida would moves in and carry on worse attacks. If the U.N. lost it’s remaining sanity, they will send troupes to the border, but doubtful they will stay past the first week.


POSTER SAID:
Israel is a soveriegn state and has every right to defend itself and its citizens from the people who boast to wipe out Israel from the world map.

SNP SSS REPLY
Sovereign countries are internationally recognized and they abide by International Laws Treaties and Agreements. Gipsy Jewish State is not sovereign, it is an outlaw state that have reneged on every Agreement it signed since 1948, it has further refuse to implement hundreds of U.N. Resolutions and failed to respect rights under every International Human Rights Treaty it signed. Further it refuses to enter into the NPT and allow for inspection of its Nuclear arsenal. This is not the deeds of sovereign state, these are the deed of an outlaw marauding Gypsies. They are not defending their Gypsies, they are attacking others.


POSTER SAID:
Are Israeli actions in Gaza and Lebanon justified? Of course they are!

SNP SSS REPLY
And so as the actions of Germany under the great leader and god, Adolph Hitler. Great Leader Himmler’s plans were all justified. It just too bad that they did not, in fact, implement in real, the hoaxes the Gypsies purported them to do. Mankind would have been spare the miserable hell they live in and will be soon facing.


POSTER SAID:
No country in today's world will spare the terrorists who spread religious hatred and kill innocent people in the name of Allah!

SNP SSS REPLY
What you said can be easily read like this:
No HUMAN in today's world will spare the terrorists JEWS who spread religious hatred and kill innocent people in the name of YEHWE! And Christian crusaders in the name of another fucking Jew god named JESUS.

POSTER SAID:
Israel should bring the WAR to Hamas and WIN it!

SNP SSS REPLY
They already brought WAR on HAMAS and all the Palestinian decades ago, and they lost it. Did you know that the coward Gypsies are withdrawing from all of Palestine and moving to New York.

POSTER SAID
A prisoner swap would be a major mistake. Israel should never do it.

SNP SSS REPLY
AGREE, nothing short of Armageddon will suffice. It is time for the final solution, man kind must get rid it self from outlawed marauding Gypsies that are diminishing the entire human advancement in all field of humanities.

POSTER SAID
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz have already given the green light to additional incursions (good news!).

SNP SSS REPLY
GOOD NEWS indeed, this should not be oncy tusey kinda of thing, many in desperate needs for DOW 5500 and QMU07 420.00

POSTER SAID
If Hamas and Hezbollah fail to return these abducted soldiers, Israel should become even MORE aggressive; Khaled Mashaal (leader of Hamas) must be DESTROYED ASAP! Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah must be killed!


SNP SSS SAID
You know these guys have tunnels full of WMD arsenal. You kill them, so what, there come others to lead that are not as politically savvy or even compassionate as them, another Zirwqawi to lead most likely.

POSTER SAID
As such Lebanon and its government should be held accountable. Israel should also send a strong signal to Syria, Iran and other like-minded countries

SNP SSS SAID
Syria and Iran are ready, they been getting ready for some time. Why not tell the coward Gypsies to start the attack.

POSTER SAID
Israel should attack Lebanon and Gaza with overwhelming force.

SNP SAID
Yes Feith, did you learn this shock and Awe style of genocidal killing of women and children from your boss Dr. Mengele Rumsfeld? Hitler and Himmler did think about this, they called it the final Solution, they did not have time to implement it but someone else just might in the next couple of years.

POSTER SAID
Religious terrorism is a dangerous neurosis that is trying to cripple this world through bombings and kidnappings.

SNP SSS SAID
Yes these Yehwe shit are something to recon with. We need the final solution to come faster. Man kind just can’t take this kind of disruptive marauding gypsies.

POSTER SAID
The only way to fight against islamic terrorism it is through guns, bombs and tanks. Diplomacy is only for civilized people; not for these pigs.


SNP SSS SAID
Well, that counts the Gypsy Jews from any Diplomatic solution, as it has been already proven that they have not mentally and physically evolved to value such diplomacy mean.


POSTER SAID

LEBANESE authorities have broken up an apparent Israeli spy ring whose members have claimed responsibility for a string of killings of Hezbollah and Palestinian militants since 1999.
The spies’ confessions, reported extensively in the Lebanese media, provide a rare glimpse into the clandestine battle between the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency and the Hezbollah organisation and its militant Palestinian allies.



In a bizarre twist Hussein Khattab, an alleged Palestinian member of the ring, who is still at large, is the brother of Sheikh Jamal Khattab, an Islamic cleric, who is accused of recruiting Arab fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.

The Israeli network was discovered after the killing last month of two Islamic Jihad officials, the brothers Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub, in a car bomb blast in Sidon, Lebanon. Lebanese intelligence officers last week arrested Mahmoud Rafeh, 59, a retired policeman from the Lebanese town of Hasbaya, his wife and two children, and discovered bomb-making materials, code machines and other espionage equipment in his home.

SNP SSS SAID
It is obvious now, that the all assassinations attempts in Lebanon, including HARIR were Mossad-Neocon inspired and implemented. They want Greater Israel at any cost, nothing will stop them, they are blind by this vision and know that the Arabs are weak, cowards, they will never come to Lebanon help. It is just too bad that the Syrians are so clever and have thwarted with the Islamic Republic of Iran help the carefully prepared plan. FRUSTRATED JEWS FOR SURE, as you can see from the hideous and barbaric act of killing civilians.

POSTER SAID
Israel will now distance Hezbollah from the border. It can either do that by a full-blown invasion to create a new and wider buffer zone (unlikely) or it will push to force an international intervention that would get the Lebanese army to deploy. Another possibility of course would be to ask for UN forces to permanently occupy the international line between the two countries just as it has done at the Golan Heights since the early 1970’s.


U.N. Troupes in Lebanon will last few days only. Even the Golan stationed U.N. Troupes need to be removed. Jews are not capable militarily of defeating Hizbullah. They lost and ran away when Hizbullah was one tenth of its current strength. In fact that is the whole deal is to drag the gypsies into protracted conflict in the north and south. Lebanon economy will soon collapse and bye bye 45 billion debit payments. Loaners will panic and money lords will raise hell. Soon Egypt will scum to the Moslem Brotherhood and next Jordan will be overrun by Palestinian, bringing the Islamic Republic of Iran brave and able revolutionary guard units top within human eyesight of the defective gypsies army units and mentally challenged Yehwites worshippers. BY THE WAY WHERE IS THAT FUCKING MESSIAH, IS INT ABOUT TIME HE SHOWS HIS UGLY ASS FACE.


POSTER SAID
In the end, my own feeling is that Nasrallah has miscalculated. Israel and its backers have now received the green light to pursue their wider strategic goal of neutralizing Hamas and Hezbollah. This incident is likely to end up revising the party’s military status in Lebanon

SNP SSS SAID
In your wildest dream. This will strengthen Hizbullah and bring it support from large swath of the Islamic World, both Sunni and Shia alike. No there were no miscalculation, this is a long, long, long campaign that will end up in the installation of Islamic Government allied to Hizbullah and Iran in Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Sudan, Somalia and then to the rest of the Gulf/Arabian countries including Yemen and Oman in the next phase II. This is not a Neocon Media blitz or shock and awe campaign. This is the road to Armageddon and it is 3 ½ years long in phase I and 3 1/2 years in Phase II ( the Final Solution).


A POSTER SAID
Hizbullah attack military convoy not civilian,Isreal attacking,civilian,the PIG hedonist,is mad and frustraded, because he is jew,if Isreal continue……… USA must try to calm Isreal,not provoke it to attack Syria,what we need now is suicide bombs to bust the fire in Isreal gut.

SNP SSS SAID
YEP, this is the time the Syrian needs to play brinkmanship and deliver to the Gypsies a nervous break down act, that will send them bazzerk and commit a brainless bazzorkish act that will bring down the whole worlds against it.

 
At 7/15/2006 06:37:00 PM, Blogger majedkhaldoon said...

Brittin is sending large military ship, capable of carrying plains,to the mediterrinean coast,why?
jordanian,and egyptian ambassadors must be withdrawn, troops must get ready and deployed at the borders, escalations must be expected

 
At 7/15/2006 07:00:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

During today’s Arab emergency meeting, Syria’s Moallem emerged as the summit’s lead defender of Hezbollah, saying that the guerrilla group carried out “legitimate acts in line with international resolutions and the U.N. charter, as acts of resistance.” Representatives of Yemen, Algeria and Qatar lined behind him.

Saud Al-Faisal responded by calling the Syrian foreign minister’s speech a
”Satanic dream.”

To put it mildly, Syrian-Saudi relations do not look too healthy right now

 
At 7/15/2006 07:04:00 PM, Blogger Ford Prefect said...

It is an empirical fact: The Israelis are a living legacy of their savage and barberic Crusader ancestors.

 
At 7/15/2006 07:29:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

I've been reading the comments here with interest.

Israel has every right to defend its northern border. All the hate speech in the world will not change this. Lebanon (or HA) can stop the attack in two seconds: return the captured soldiers and stop firing missiles into Israel. Israel has given Lebanon a six year chance to assert itself as a country and Lebanon blew it.

Firing missiles randomly targetted at civilians is a war crime as is not allowing red cross access to prisoners of war. Just goes to show that if the balance of power was different HA would gladly slaughter all Israelis.

Israel would gladly choose peace in the middle east if that was an option on the table (1967 borders + Jerusalem + no right of return for palestinian refugees + no hostilities). Unfortunately, as people have pointed out, there are elements in the middle east who don't want peace and are pursuing a longer term agenda to eradicate Israel from the middle east.

Here's the equation:
Israel inflicting limited damage on Lebanon (It could cause x 100 more, a lot of the attacks are just pyrotechnics) vs. Israel's destruction.

If Israel does not use force against the HA and Hamas their influence will grow. Incorrect use of force will also make their influence grow. It does appear though that Israel is very controlled in the way it is applying its force on both fronts (maybe too controlled).

Someone mentioned 40 years of failed policy, I ask if that is really true? In those 40 years Israel has managed to defend itself against significantly larger surrounding armies and make peace with some of its neighbours (not the warmest peace but still no hostilities). 40 years ago the Arab world was united in its wish to destroy Israel and now it is divided. In those 40 years Israel has become a regional economical and military superpower. Where has Syria gotten to in its 40 years of policy? Evil dictatorship doesn't pay.

It is naturally hard for Israel to deal with HA and Hamas as they are guerrila organizations - hiding and taking advantage of civilians. Lying in wait until they can seize a local advantage.

Dealing with Syria and Iran is also a difficult undertaking and will also portray Israel as an aggressor (All those who are saying Israel has no right to attack Lebanon would then say Israel should have attacked Lebanon).

I think that what Israel will try to do is create an image of the crazy bully no one wants to mess with. If you see him on the street you cross to the other side. If you look at him the wrong way he punches you in the face. It will make someone like Assad twice before the next provocation. You have to punch many people in the fact before this image is created though, that's the unfortunate part here where it's bombs and not punches. And yes, a lot of people will hate you. In some neighbourhoods you can't survive without this kind of an image. Israel has somewhat lost that image when it retreated unilaterllay from Southern Lebanon and Gaza. If Israel does not do this it will suffer constant attacks, there's really no option.

The tricky part is that Israel is trying to do all this while maintaining a certain moral stance and differentiate itself morally from its enemies. Many people do not appreciate those moral differences but some do. e.g.:
Israel allows the International Red Cross to visit prisoners.
Israel does not target non-fighting civilians.
etc. etc.

Another point, regarding the Lebanese prisoners Israel is holding. Many of these were taken to help get information about air navigator Ron Arad who was held at a time by HA and to collect information about other missing soldiers (dead or alive). In the childish game of "Who Started?" it was not Israel who started as much as arab propoganda would like to portray (and we can go back in history as far as you'd like). To those who will say that Israel's response is or has been out of proprotion I'd ask why should there be any proprtions? Israel will do its utmost to defend its people and retrieve its captured soldiers.

I hope the people in the middle east will smarten up to the likes of Nassrallah, Assad and Ahamdinijad (sp?) who get their power trip on the suffering on their people.

A comment to ford perfect: While some of Israel's response here is emotional it's pretty clear who the savage and barbaric side is in all this, here's a clue, it's not Israel.

 
At 7/15/2006 07:55:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

Guy,

Are you an Israeli citizen?

 
At 7/15/2006 08:02:00 PM, Blogger syrian said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7/15/2006 08:06:00 PM, Blogger syrian said...

guy,

How about a peace based on 1967 borders+jerusalem+right of return+no hostilities. Not too many arabs will object to that.

Also, if Israel just wanted to extract information from these prisoners and has not been able to do it yet, then they never will be able to do and it makes no sense to hold them any longer. If they extracted the information then it makes no sense to hold them any longer. If Israel had released those prisoners, HA would have had no reason to capture the two soldiers and this whole thing would be in a future that never gets realized.

 
At 7/15/2006 08:11:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

ehsani2,

Technically yes. Though I no longer live in Israel and have another citizenship.

I'm quite concerned about what's going on there. Another round of seemingly never-ending violance and too much (avoidable) suffering. Religion, exteremism, politics.

Yourself?

 
At 7/15/2006 08:26:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Syrian,

I think the prisoners are just an excuse. Same for the Shebba farm. They'd find some other excuse , no worries.

I agree that if no more information can be extracted and if their release holds no threat to Israel they should be released. Possibly one of these conditions does not hold. I do know there are Israeli lawyers and organizations fighting for the release of some of those and at least their families have no doubt as to their status (unlike the Israeli families who live in doubt). If Lebanon asserted itself as a country and signed a peace agreement with Israel that would certainly resolve that situation. I don't belive we're holding any Egyptian or Jordanian war prisoners.

Right of return means that Israel would cease to exist, some other solution e.g. compensation would have to be acceptable to the Palestinians. Maybe a very limited right of return would be acceptable. Some arrangement can probably be made re Jeruslaem though it is the historical captial of the jewish people (from before Islam). Probably some sort of internationally managed status would be acceptable to Israel.

I don't think the above are the problem. The problem is those elements in the middle east who for some reason or other (religious is one) refuse to accept the presence of Israel.

 
At 7/15/2006 08:35:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

Guy, How about you vacate 6 million Jews, say to Zimbabwe. There you may find more convincing evidence that Solomon and David possibly existed + 4.5 Trillions compensation for Syrian, Lebanese and Palestinian for 60 year of damages + no Jewish whores will invade and pollute our nice people this is the formula : + Iran + Hizbullah + Hamas + Moslem Brotherhood+ Alqaida + few hundreds other militias - Saudi - Egypt - Jordan - Libya - Yemen -Oman -Kuwait -UAE - All other Satanic Gulf state - Every single oil field and pipeline - U.N. + Armageddon = 0.0000000000000000000 ZERO ISRAEL divided by bankrupt global economic system, multiplied by world wide starvation.

This is the formula that will be working now. So learn your math well, you will need it to survive.

 
At 7/15/2006 08:45:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Syrian,

Seems like "syrian nationalist party" doesn't like your proposal. He should also work a bit on his history studies (and his math). At any rate his dream of jews vacating Israel will only happen in the end of the world, I wouldn't hold my breath. This is exactly the core issue I was talking about.

Guy

 
At 7/15/2006 09:02:00 PM, Blogger syrian said...

Guy,

You can ignore SNP, we all do.

With regards to the prisoners question, I seriously doubt that these three will reppresent an existential danger to Israel.

With regards to the right of return; we are talking about granting people the right to return; not the forced return. If the right of return is granted with the option of citizenship in whatever country the Palestinians are, it is my belief that a good number of the refugees will choose to be naturalized and remain where they happen to be. However, I might be wrong.

You express concern that the right of return will mean that Israel would cease to exist. I assume you base that concern on the demographic distribution inside the borders of Israel. However, If you consider that the birth rate of Israeli Arabs well exceeds that of Israeli Jews, the demographic balance will sooner or later tilt towards the Arabs. What do you (or the state or Israel) propose to do at that time. Would you then be arguing for the forced deportation of Arabs so that Israel may maintain the demographic balance that keeps it Jewish???

I would be interested to hear what you may have to say about that.

 
At 7/15/2006 09:27:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

Guy,

I am Syrian of course.

The right of return is indeed a major issue. The demographics as Syrian put is clearly on a negative trend from Israel’s viewpoint. Indeed, it is perhaps the single most important factor behind a two state solution that seems to have become Israel’s preferred long-term solution.

I have to admit though that most Arabs and Moslems do not seem to be able to bring themselves to accepting the existence of the state of Israel in the region regardless of the formula employed.

Only when, and if, they do can this issue ever have a chance of being resolved one day.

I personally doubt it will be in my lifetime.

 
At 7/15/2006 09:27:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Syrian,

I consider Israeli arabs to be equal to Israeli jews in all regards. They should enjoy equal rights and share equal responsibilities. Israel should work on further integrating Israeli arabs into a multicultural Israeli society. Obviously there have to be two sides to this arrangment and the Israeli arabs do find themselves in a difficult position. Funny enough the Israeli arabs are in the same boat as the ultra-orthodox jews, they're both discrimated because most of them do not serve in the IDF.

My concern with the right of return is not (only) demographic. After all these years of hostility it is just impossible to imagine Palesinians mingling peacefuly with Israeli's without a very significant cooling down period.

There would have to be geographical seperation.

It could be an interesting social experiment though, a chance for both sides to see the others are human beings.

(I know I'm dreaming here, especially given the latest developments) but after 50-100 years of peace and if we can prevail over the radicals we can imagine something like the EU where people can move freely between different countries.

 
At 7/15/2006 09:39:00 PM, Blogger Enlightened One said...

I have spent the best part of four days trying to get my wife and her siblings out , and just succeeded in getting them flights out of Damascus, in the next 24 hours.


Australia is a long way away to try and co ordinate something to this effect, we have been communicating by text as the phone contact has bee intermittent, my mother told me last night that three of my cousins whom i have never met are currently doing their compulsory military service in the army as well, and my aunts are in consolable at the moment at the possible loss of their sons.


I dream of a peace , a real peace , guy i read your statement here with interest why did you leave israel?, i have jewish friends in australia, my parents backround is lebanese muslim, we have family friends of all denominations. The only real chance for the middle east is dialogue.

Sadly when people lose their heads i feel , and sanity does not prevail, madness and destruction only result. I am happy that i will get my wife back in four days, i abhor this senseless violence however, this dedication to violence in the middle east must stop, this is the core issue i feel!

 
At 7/15/2006 09:49:00 PM, Blogger EHSANI2 said...

“Satanic Dreams”

This was the Saudi Foreign minister’s reply to his Syrian counterpart following the latter’s presentation.

This is unprecedented.

Any hopes of a forced automatic condemnation of Israel that Bashar must have expected and hoped for was dealt a severe blow by the custodian of the two holy Mosques of the Islamic world.

Saudi Arabia is not prepared to give (Shia) Iran and Syria a Carte Blanch to lead the big cause.

The Shia cresent termed by the king of Jordan is trying to jump the line and become the sole legitimate bearer of the big “kaddiya”.

Saudi Arabia and company is clearly alarmed by this prospect

 
At 7/15/2006 09:52:00 PM, Blogger syrian said...

Guy,

I appreciate the fact that you recognize that Israeli Arabs do not, in fact, share the same rights and responsibilities as Jews; eventhough they should.

Demographics aside, your additional concern is peaceful coexistance. Yet the right of return does not have to be granted all at once. It can be arranged that for those who choose to return, only a portion are allowed in every successive year (or whatever preset time period) thereby giving the ones who return a chance to get used to the idea of peaceful coexistance with the Jewish population. After all, History says that Arabs and Jews can live peacefully as they have for centuries throughout the middle east prior to the creation of Israel.

I think you have not really answered my question of what will Israel do when the Israeli Arab proportion starts to exceed the 40 or 50% mark. I'm pretty certain that the Ultra-Orthodox jews are not discriminated against in the same way the Arabs are. People might look at them as if they were a minority but they do enjoy the full rights and privilages of citizenship.

 
At 7/15/2006 09:53:00 PM, Blogger Ivanka said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7/15/2006 09:56:00 PM, Blogger Ivanka said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:04:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

Listen to these coward sissy AIRABS. Fucking rag heads are already trembling and talking of brotherhood with the Evil Jews, Peace and Return. Have you no dignity, no honor, just cowardice.

You idiots that are befriending this evil beastly Jew GUY. These Jews are wild creatures know no other way, than the savage way. They are like their god Yahweh, murderous diabolic being are out to devour the whole planet and kill all it's inhabitant so that they can have it all for themselves. They will leave few AIRABS slaves to serve them of course, like the Israeli Palestinian doing.

If they are civilized and humanely, they would have not treated 4 Million Palestinians the evil way they treated them, kept them in concentration camps for 50 years. They would have abided by all the treaties and laws that the Civilized human abide by. They would have not seek to attack others as they do. Curses these evil species of wild animals, even their god had cursed them over and over again. He is fed up with them and have plotted their demise. Have no pity on them. They are untouchable.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:07:00 PM, Blogger norman said...

Ivanka,you should have not removed your note.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:07:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Enlightened one,

Good to hear your family is out of the danger zone.

I left Israel for many reasons. It was the height of the Palestinan suicide bombing campaign against Israel where people were killed left right and center (everyone seems to have forgotten that) and I needed a break. I just finished one job and had a job offer out of Israel so I took advantage of that. There were some other family reasons. I guess you can leave Israel but that doesn't mean that Israel leaves you...

I hope that Israel will succeed where it has failed countless times before, that is translating its military power into diplomacy. Israel is an expert in winning the war but losing the battle.

Unfortunately violence is sometimes necessary. If someone is attacking you, you have to defend yourself. You should never forget however that your attacker is the same as you (just temporarly insance (-: ) and you should strive to control them and minimize the damage. This applies between individuals and between countries.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:15:00 PM, Blogger Ivanka said...

Well there it is again...normy

Any jewish person from any country in the world has the right to come and live in palestine. they do not, however, have the right to drive a whole people away from their land under the threat of massacre

jewish people have given the world many great thinkers, scientists and artists. Unfortunately, it is not those people who founded israel but bloodthirsty generals and religious extremists. Thinks good have been very different, and very better...

I think israel is an immoral entity, the way it is today. It has the obligation to change.

jews have the right to live in palestine but they have done great injustice to all surrounding countries.

Justice is the most important thing, without justice noone will forgive noone.

Finally, guy, I like your EU idea and hope it works. I have often read and herad about jewish contribution to arabic culture, especially music. I would like to know jewish culture more.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:25:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

To all those in love with the Jew Pussy, name one, I will not make it hard and say name Two, I will not even play impossibility game and ask you to name Three. JUST ONE POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TEH FUCKING JEWS DID TO TEH REGION AND SURROUNDING COUNTRIES SINCE THEY HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT CURSE IT STATE. JUST ONE FUCKERS.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:29:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Syrian nationalist party,

uh-oh, you're getting your history wrong again, what will be the end?

It was the arab countries who kept the Palestinians (600,000) in refugee camps after 1948. Before 1968 there were no refugee camps (maybe you should also look up concentration camps while you're at it) under Israeli control, even after 1968 most refugees were out of Israel. I'm not going to give you a history lesson on the 1948 war, you can look it up yourself.

Most of those refugees were not allowed to return to their homes, you can blame Israel for that. Tough. Don't start a war if you don't want to face the consequences. Still applies today I guess. They (together with their arab brothers) could have rebuilt their lives.

It's quite clear you are totally ignorant and blinded by hate. I can only hope for you that you'll get over it. Otherwise you'll have to face YOUR God one day and explain.

 
At 7/15/2006 10:59:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

I would not even dignify a response to this stupid and typically deceptive response ( typically Zionist) from GUY.

I know my history, but you may not no yours or selling out Ancient and exposed Zionist propoganda.

Others can reply to teh crap you said, I want you to read about your history here:

www.jesusneverexisted.com

Click on the Jewish stuff, if that Jewish carpenter is not of interest to you. Read about your history fraud from Moses to David and Solomon to what else teh Temple.

Also read about what jews did and doing at:

wwww jewwatch.com

asshole

 
At 7/15/2006 11:02:00 PM, Blogger Enlightened One said...

Thanks Guy, very similar reasons my father pulled us out of lebanon, he saw the insanity coming.


Just a quick note, I love all mankind, whethe he be jew , christian or muslim, black or white, red or brown, i believe that hatred breeds hatred, i remember questioning my father about the existence of god when i was eleven, his response was pointing to his heart, thats where you will feel it, it will manifest itself in how you treat others....

I fel if we are to have justice in the middle east, the right of return is important, not only for the arabs but for those jews who left their arab homelands as well....

There has to be justice for all

 
At 7/15/2006 11:05:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Israel's contributions to the region (and the world) from random sources:

Some of the leading cancer treatment drugs were developed in Israel (e.g. beta-interferon and copaxone).

Most likely your computer hardware and software incorporates technology developed in Israel.

Isreal brough democracy to the region.

In the field of medicine, Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant (in southern California's Mojave desert).

Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in US hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel brough a Nobel prize in economics to the region.

Israel brought the European basketball cup to the region.

Israel won the eurovision song contest :-)

( http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/004205.shtml )

Just imagine what Israel could do with its neighbours if we had peace.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:36:00 PM, Blogger norman said...

And Israel displased about a milion Palestenians and killed a hundred Lebanese civelians in the last two day and the Arabs are still counting .you must be a doctor as you know all the medical advances.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:43:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Ivanka,

Any jewish person from any country in the world has the right to come and live in palestine. they do not, however, have the right to drive a whole people away from their land under the threat of massacre

Are you talking about 1948 here? It's quite possible that in 1948 some people were driven off their lands under threat. There's a larger picture here, the end of the British mandate, the UN approved division plan, and the history of the region (I was just telling some friends the other day it's really the British that should be blamed for all this mess)

And yes, Israel will let any jewish person come and live in Israel and is a unique country in that sense. That has to do with the uniqueness of the persecution of jews. Like any other country Israel has the right to decide who can immigrate to it.

jewish people have given the world many great thinkers, scientists and artists. Unfortunately, it is not those people who founded israel but bloodthirsty generals and religious extremists. Thinks good have been very different, and very better...

I think that if you ever were to visit Israel you would find most people are not bloodthirsty or religious extremists. I think the people who founded Israel were idealists who belived the jews are entitled to their own country in their historic homeland.

I think israel is an immoral entity, the way it is today. It has the obligation to change.
I think that compared to many other countries Israel is quite moral. There's always room for improvement.

jews have the right to live in palestine but they have done great injustice to all surrounding countries.
To me it looks like the surrounding countries have done injustice to Israel (If trying to throw all jews into the sea can be termed injustice).

Justice is the most important thing, without justice noone will forgive noone.
I think we need to be more pragmatic. How can we work the situation to benefit of all people?

Finally, guy, I like your EU idea and hope it works. I have often read and herad about jewish contribution to arabic culture, especially music. I would like to know jewish culture more.

I'm sure there's plenty of resources if you're interested, just don't rely on www.jesusneverexisted.com for your information :-) (Quite an amusing site by the way but not exactly a scientific reference) If you're interested in some links to contemporary Israeli culture I could try and come up with some.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:47:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

“Some of the leading cancer treatment drugs were developed in Israel (e.g. beta-interferon and copaxone).

STOLEN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND INDUSTRIAL SECRETS FROM UNSESPECTING EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN COMPANIES.

“Most likely your computer hardware and software incorporates technology developed in Israel.”

ALMOST ENTIRELY STOLEN AND KNOCKED OFF TECHNOLOGIES,

“Isreal brough democracy to the region.”

I HATE THE MOTHERFUCKING JEWS, READ THE LIES THESE HUMAN SCUM SHELL OUT. SYRIAN AND LEBANON HAD DEMOCRACY BEFORE THAT PISSING POST CALLED ISRAEL EVER EXISTED, IT WAS STILL A COLLECTION OF KEBUTZ COMMUNIST SYSTEM.

MOST OF THE MEDICINES THAT ISAREL WORKING WITH WAS ALREADY DISCOVERED BY IBN SINA. JUST ADDED STOLEN TECHNOLOGIES.

Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

STOLEN, READ ABOUT IT

SHOVE THE REST OF THE CRAP UP A DONKEY ASS AND ANSEAR THE FUCKING QUESTION. IT IS JUST ONE FUCKING QUESTION AND MADE IT SIMPLE TO YOU AND TO ALL THE OTHER FUCKERS:

NAME ONE POSITIVE CONTRIBUITION ISRAEL MADE TO THE REGION AND SURROUNDING COUNTRY SINCE ITS EXISTANCE IN MODERN TIME.

a. None whatsoever. Just murder, theft and destruction

YOU MAY ALSO ANSWEAR A SIMPLE QUESTION: NAME ONE POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION THE JEWS MADE TO SURROUNDING CIVILIZED NATIONS AROUND THEM WHEN THEY HAD THE FIRST INITIAL MISRABLE EXISTANCE.

a..None whatsoever. They were such diabolic people that every nation invaded them and even their god YEHWE cursed them and punished them repeatedly.


Just imagine what Israel could do with its neighbours if we had peace

ARABS BEEN BEGGING FOR PEACE FOR DECADES, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MADRID CONFERENCE, WHAT HAPPENED TO WITHDRAWL FROM GOLAN AND THE PALESTENIAN AREAS.

GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU DECEIVER, YOU ARE FINISHED. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE HOW MANY NUKE THE JEWS HAVE< WILL MAKE SURE THAT THE WORLD LEAD BY EUROPE WILL MARCH IN SURROUND YOU AND STARVE YOU TOTAL AND COMPLETRE BLOCKADE UNTIL YOU TURN IN ALL THE NUKE AND OPEN THE COUNTRY JUST LIKE YOU MOTHER FUCKING JEWS DEMANDED EVERY COUNTRY IN THE REGION TO DO.

ANYONE THAT SUPPORT YOU WILL VANISH.

KEEP LIVING IN A PIPE DREAM

 
At 7/15/2006 11:51:00 PM, Blogger Syrian Nationalist Party said...

READ ABOUT THE EVIL JEWS

www.jewwatch.com

 
At 7/15/2006 11:52:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

norman,

Israel didn't start this round on either fronts.

HA and the Palestinans are also killing Israelis. I apologize for Israel having larger firepower and for its inability to pinpoint the HA and Hamas hiding between civilians. I also apologize for Israel's bomb shelters, better medial treatment, and luck all reducing the number of casualties on the Israeli side.
Just imagine what would happen if a HA rocket falls on a school. I guess I should also apologize for the IDF screw-ups in letting the HA and Hamas kidnap their soldiers and catch them off-guard.

But really, I'm sorry for the innocent who got hurt. Israel is attempting to target HA and Hamas while HA and Hamas are attemping to target civilians.

A large number of Israelis living in the north have also been displaced from their homes by HA rockets.

 
At 7/15/2006 11:55:00 PM, Blogger Enlightened One said...

The Nationalist EDUCATION SYSTEM IN SYRIA....

here is a theory,

So that sociey can be moved by he illuminati ( Baath ) to a more restrictive state, in accordance with classic Hegelian methodology. THESIS ( Action ), then ANTI THESIS ( Reaction ), and then SYNTHESIS ( more control )

LOL keep spewing that FILTH and Poison

 
At 7/16/2006 05:34:00 AM, Blogger Lira = 1500 said...

Syria on the Attack!

All Hail the Syrian Sukhois and Migs that are shooting down the Israeli F-16's in the Golan and over Lattakia.

Those SAMs really showed some fire power.

Good work

 
At 7/16/2006 08:33:00 AM, Blogger Ivanka said...

Guy unfortunately your answers are the usual defense we get from all the people who defend israel. I am not convinced by a single word of it. it is all in a strange and very partial perspective, i think. i do hope for peace with israel and i do hope one day we can freely visit and know each other. but that does not change my basic conviction: I think israel is immoral, it is based on the idea that you can come to a land where a people allready lives and take it away from them, under some false religious context. i know jews were persecuted but that does not give you the right to persecute other people.

 
At 7/16/2006 01:15:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

Ivanka,

Looks like another day of blood and destruction. Dead in Haifa (I have relatives there).

I'm sorry that you feel that way. Every person has their (partial) perspective.

Jews did not return to Israel with the intention of displacing the local people. I'm not sure what better answers you're looking for, what would it take to convince you? Unfortunately I am not a historian so I can't debate the finer points of history.

Most of Israel was inhospitable, marshes, tropical diseases, desert. It was under the rule of the Turkish empire and later the British. All that was a long time ago. And yes, there were people who were displaced from their homes (countless times throughout the region's history). Interesting enough it was actually the turkish who have started allowing diaspora jews to return to the region.

I'd be the first to support compensation for anyone who was displaced. I reject violance as means for resolving this esp. since the people in Israel getting killed today have little to do with the historic events.

By the way, by your criteria most countries in the world are immoral. (Just look at what the spaniards did to south america, I know one wrong doesn't justify another).

 
At 7/16/2006 10:45:00 PM, Blogger norman said...

I want to add somthing else Guy ,when Jesus came many Jews became christians then some muslems how can you deny them their homes because they changed their religeon and let people calling themselves Jews because they married into Jewish family and caliming the right of return ,the Palestenian propably should become Jews and claim that right too.by the way i have relative in Nassera,Palestine.

 
At 7/17/2006 12:41:00 PM, Blogger Guy said...

One more point if anyone is still around to listen:
Do immoral acts justify killing?

I would say no.

When is deadly force acceptable?

Only when you are in an immediate, concrete, danger to your life.

Whether or not Israel in the past has committed immoral acts (and no one is moral in this world) is irrelvant. Advocating killing all jews or Israelis on this basis is pure evil. There are people in the middle east who call for this daily and Israel has every right to act against them when they try to materialize their threats.

 

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